Can anyone tell me when the classic banjo style was defined and what event, book, or musician marks that event.   Did the 6 and 7 string banjo predate the style, was it ever an accepted part of the style or was it part of the minstrel style?

The seven string does not seem to have been a big part of American banjo history although Dobson  was making 7 string banjo by 1877 (Rob Mackillop) and I have a Dobson 7 string flush fret which has a seven string tailpiece patented 1881 imported by Hays London. Did Dobson  produce them specifically for the UK market.

Are there any tutors for 7  string banjo earlier than Ellis.

LMJ

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Comment by Jody Stecher on May 23, 2013 at 14:47

The akonting of Senegal appears to be in a similar relationship to the ancestor of the banjo as the banjo itself: cognate and probably not identical. 

I have a Daniels banjo myself and have had two. Attached is a photocopy of page 4 of the patent for Joseph Daniels' "Defiance" design. Look at the bridge and at the spacing of the six strings on the bridge. Because of the narrow tailpiece the strings cannot be spaced any wider and this spacing makes drop-thumb playing difficult for the hand of an adult. 

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I have also see a facsimile of Joseph Daniels' banjo tutor book. It contains song accompaniment using the right hand motions of "classic banjo" technique.

Every Temlett I have seen (and every photo of a Temlett I have seen) has an even tighter string spacing. I just don't see how the thumb can drop and get "inside" as it must to play drop-thumb technique.  

I have also seen photos of banjos in the hands of 19th century English country and village musicians. I don't doubt the use of the banjo. My question was about evidence that these banjos were played using clawhammer drop thumb technique. If that were so it would be a stupendous discovery.

Comment by Trapdoor2 on May 23, 2013 at 16:49

While I have lots of old 19th c. tutors, both UK and US, I cannot recall seeing a UK tutor which describes the 'stroke-style' manner of playing...could be simply my fuzzy memory though. This style, which I consider a precursor to clawhammer, was first published in the same period of your Fiddle book, ie, mid 19th c.

Frankly, the banjo wasn't truly "fixed" in design until the 1890's. Some companies (such as S.S.Stewart) cataloged 6-string banjos well into the 20th c. As plectrum playing ousted fingerstyle, the 6-string format changed to that of the guitar-banjo (usually a horrible sounding thing)...and so on. Many banjo makers (throughout the history of the instrument) would build whatever you liked, provided you sent money...so 'oddball' string configurations show up even today.

If you are interested in exploring the early history of the banjo and the music played on it, you might visit the "Minstrel Banjo" group here on ning. Many of the forum-members there are on the cutting edge of the current revival and are deep into research at this very moment.

IIRC, the banjo had its debut in the UK in 1843 when the Virginia Serenaders opened in either Ireland or Scotland. Sweeney also visited in the same time period (I cannot recall who was there first) and ended up performing together. Almost everything you've heard about Joel Sweeney is myth...Bob Carlin's book is a good read in that regard.

String spacing for clawhammer and/or drop thumb, Jody, may be simply personal preference. I prefer a wider spacing myself but much of the early stuff is so simplistic (and there's lots of "drop thumb" early on) that I can do it pretty well even on narrow spacing. I agree that the 6 and 7 string banjo was most likely a "singers" instrument (as opposed to an "instrumentalists" instrument)...but I have no proof of that and there's no real reason they cannot be used instrumentally.

What else? I had another thought...but it seems to have escaped. :-/

Comment by Jody Stecher on May 23, 2013 at 17:26

Trapdoor, the dropthumb technique requires the thumb to do on a low string what it does on the short string. And that is to press towards earth and release. I suppose if one bent the thumb extremely and contacted the string with the very tip of the thumb then this would be possible with the narrow spacing of 6 and especially of 7 string banjo. But this is comfortable or even possible only for those whose thumbs have a convex bend when at rest. For those with concave or straight thumb joints the job is hard or impossible without adequate space between the strings. Also along with the simplistic music some of the early dropthumb stroke banjo music is so complex rhythmically it makes my eyeballs revolve in opposite directions just trying to read it. But that is neither here nor there because English country dance music is rhythmically straightforward. Since the banjo visitors you mentioned all played stroke style, and some took students, LMJ's conjecture that the banjo players in the 19th century photos might have been downpickers is not impossible. I was hoping for evidence. An English precedent for fiddle and clawhammer banjo playing together would be a tremendous discovery. I think it's probably not true but it would be great if it was. I love it whenever I find out that "everything I know is wrong".

Comment by Trapdoor2 on May 23, 2013 at 18:13

Jody said, "Trapdoor, the dropthumb technique requires the thumb to do on a low string what it does on the short string."

Yes...I play both Stroke-Style and Clawhammer (and Drop Thumb, etc.). I find narrow string spacings far more difficult for my index (downstroke) than I do for my thumb for some reason...probably my admittedly sloppy RH. Stroke-style rhythms are often indeed mind bending, I often have to resort to creating a MIDI file so I can hear what the arranger wanted. Some of it (esp. Rice), I'm not so sure I would call it "arranging", more like "willy nilly". ;-)

I suspect, with UK players having had a modicum of guitar/lute/whatever history, they may have simply discounted the actual mechanics of the style and simply converted to a familiar means: fingerpicking. When you convert the old stroke-style music to fingerstyle, much of it becomes pretty simplistic...esp. now that you have an extra finger or two to use!

Comment by Joel Hooks on May 24, 2013 at 0:33

Hi Marc,  I think this is what you are looking for...

Comment by Trapdoor2 on May 24, 2013 at 13:49

Hi Joel! Yup, there it is. I just couldn't remember it. There's another early UK thimble/stroke tutor by Mackney or Mackay or something like that. My copy is shredded but someone sent me copies of the missing pages years ago. I believe there are also UK printed copies of several of the early american tutors. Same, page for page but with a different cover and "author".

I owe you a tutor...but I cannot seem to find it. My music room has evolved into a dump...I need to take a week off and straighten it out!

Comment by Rob MacKillop on June 23, 2013 at 15:09

Somebody just made me aware of this thread. If I may add...

Walter Stent's Progressive Studies for the Banjo (New South Wales, 1896) has the following. He dismisses the 7-string, and views the 6-string as suitable only for accompaniment. Fingerstyle technique only. 

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