Banjo Orchestra question

[Trapdoor2]

Hi gang,

I've just received a new bit of music from Mr. S.S.Stewart: "Schottische 'Ecstacy'" This is a "Banjo Orchestra piece with sheets for Banjeurine, Guitar, Mandolin, 1st, 2nd and piccolo banjo. It is a short piece, 16m A part, 8m B and another 8m for the C part. Key change adds a sharp in the B part and looses it again in the C.

Here's the catch (and it is one that I've seen before), the 1st, 2nd and piccolo part is in the key of D (two sharps). The Guitar and Mandolin parts are written in F (one flat) and the Banjeurine is written in A (three sharps).

How do I resolve this? If we assume they're transposing instruments...which transposes where? If the "regular banjos" are tuned gCGBD, they'll play in the key of G (I think) if the Banjeurine is tuned to cFCEG, it will play in D, a fifth above the regular banjos...which may work. But, where do the Guitar and Mandolin come in? How were they tuned?

[Jody Stecher]

Well first of all are all the parts written in treble clef? Second, is there any indication whether the regular banjos are tuned in "American tuning" where the third string is E or modern tuning where the third string is G? Third, and this is a long shot, is the melody major or minor? The answer may possibly shed light on the conundrum.

The banjos, piccolo banjo and banjeurine all match up. The banjeurine is tuned four *frets* above a regular banjo which means it plays a fourth (not a fifth) higher than a banjo and the player fingers as if it weren't and it all comes out as if a regular banjo were capoed at the fifth fret. So if the tune is indeed in D then the banjeurine player fingers as if in A major and it comes out D.

How this matches up with the guitar and mandolin is not clear to me yet. I'm wondering whether the clefs match up.

As far as I know mandolin was always tuned as a violin and always used treble clef. Guitar also seems to have gone from early tablature right to treble clef (even though it sounds an octave lower than written).

Maybe this is a start to unravelling the knot.

[Trapdoor2]

Yes, all parts are in the treble clef. The mandolin part appears to indicate GDAE tuning, there is a full 4-string chord that starts the B part and it is stacked GDBG (starting at the G below middle C...a Gmaj chord). In the same measure, the guitar is playing a G bass note and then GBF (boom-chick backup), which is a G7, I believe.

Same measure in 1st banjo = G#D e (fifth string) (three sharps)
Same measure in 2nd banjo = D (bass) G#D e (fifth string) (three sharps)
Same measure in piccolo banjo = E (bass) g#de (fifth string) (three sharps)
Same measure in banjeaurine = F#AB (8th note chord) then F#AD# (quarter note chord) (four sharps)

So, it appears that the mandolin is hitting a Gmaj chord, the guitar is hitting G7 and the three 'regular' banjos also hitting G7 (transposed to gCGBD tuning). The banjeaurine must be there too...I just can't figure it out. My brain hurts!

[Jody Stecher]

am having trouble getting Ning to separate my words from yours. I made some comments between your lines and tried to distinguish them with italics but your words became italics as well. I then made my comments in bold and that worked but Ning elected to put your words and mine on the same line. Ning's software is behaving like an opponent!

Trapdoor2 said:

Yes, all parts are in the treble clef. The mandolin part appears to indicate GDAE tuning, there is a full 4-string chord that starts the B part and it is stacked GDBG (starting at the G below middle C...a Gmaj chord). but if the mandolin part is written in the key of one flat, and that one flat is B (flat) then it will be a G minor chord. I think you're right and it's a major chord and the key signature is wrong. Maybe the guitar and mandolin parts were intended to be written in the key of one sharp (G major) and the printer gave Sam Stewart one flat instead. Stranger things have been known to happen. In the same measure, the guitar is playing a G bass note and then GBF (boom-chick backup), which is a G7, I believe.

Same measure in 1st banjo = G#D e (fifth string) (three sharps)

this is an E7 chord. Assuming that this was written for players who were used to reading in low tuning but were now, in the Modern Age, playing tuned 3 half steps higher, *all* the chords you've indicated are inversions of E7 on the page sounding as G7 in the air.

what I don't understand is how the Two Sharps of your original post became Three Sharps in your more recent post. Now that the key of D is no longer in the picture the whole thing is starting to make sense.

Same measure in 2nd banjo = D (bass) G#D e (fifth string) (three sharps)
Same measure in piccolo banjo = E (bass) g#de (fifth string) (three sharps)

so far so good

Same measure in banjeaurine = F#AB (8th note chord) then F#AD# (quarter note chord) (four sharps)


this is the same part that was in the key of three sharps earlier today? Anyway F#AB raised a fourth is BDE, an inversion of E7, right on target, and F# A D# becomes BDG#, also a variety of E7.

So, it appears that the mandolin is hitting a Gmaj chord, the guitar is hitting G7 and the three 'regular' banjos also hitting G7 (transposed to gCGBD tuning). The banjeaurine must be there too...I just can't figure it out. My brain hurts!

Not rocket science, I just counted on my fingers.

[Jody Stecher]

now my last sentence (about rocket science) is appearing on the main page as though it were the beginning of my response instead of the end. Do click on that reply, Marc, there's more to it!

Trapdoor2 said:

Yes, all parts are in the treble clef. The mandolin part appears to indicate GDAE tuning, there is a full 4-string chord that starts the B part and it is stacked GDBG (starting at the G below middle C...a Gmaj chord). In the same measure, the guitar is playing a G bass note and then GBF (boom-chick backup), which is a G7, I believe.

Same measure in 1st banjo = G#D e (fifth string) (three sharps)
Same measure in 2nd banjo = D (bass) G#D e (fifth string) (three sharps)
Same measure in piccolo banjo = E (bass) g#de (fifth string) (three sharps)
Same measure in banjeaurine = F#AB (8th note chord) then F#AD# (quarter note chord) (four sharps)

So, it appears that the mandolin is hitting a Gmaj chord, the guitar is hitting G7 and the three 'regular' banjos also hitting G7 (transposed to gCGBD tuning). The banjeaurine must be there too...I just can't figure it out. My brain hurts!

[Jody Stecher]

I've posted my reply again in a different form because Ning made yet another hash of it.

if the mandolin part is written in the key of one flat, and that one flat is B (flat) then it will be a G minor chord. I think you're right and it's a major chord and the key signature is wrong. Maybe the guitar and mandolin parts were intended to be written in the key of one sharp (G major) and the printer gave Sam Stewart one flat instead. Stranger things have been known to happen.

G#D e is an E7 chord. Assuming that this was written for players who were used to reading in low tuning but were now, in the Modern Age, playing tuned 3 half steps higher, *all* the chords you've indicated are inversions of E7 on the page sounding as G7 in the air.

what I don't understand is how the Two Sharps of your original post became Three Sharps in your more recent post. Now that the key of D is no longer in the picture the whole thing is starting to make sense.



Is the banjeaurine part the same part that was in the key of three sharps earlier today? Anyway F#AB raised a fourth is BDE, an inversion of E7, right on target, and F# A D# becomes BDG#, also a variety of E7.


Not rocket science, I just counted on my fingers.

[Trapdoor2]

Good analysis, Jody. Thanks!

My bad on the key change thing. I selected a single measure to compare all the instruments...which turned out to be in the B part, where the piece changes key. I can't scan it at the moment (so we can see the whole piece) but I'll get there!

[Trapdoor2]

Finally got the thing scanned (see attached)...and remembered what my original problem with these "orchestral" pieces was.

The problem is with TablEdit (TAB editor). When working with ensembles , each instrument must be notated in one key, that is, the if the 1st banjo is playing in D then all the rest of the instruments must notated in D. Thus, when I read the Banjeaurine notation, I am not only transposing for the instrument but also transposing to get it in TAB in the correct key...does that make any sense?

So, in the "native" notation (and tuned for the 'native' key), the 1st, 2nd and piccolo banjos are notated in Dmaj (A part). The Banjeaurine is notated in Amaj and the Guitar & Mandolin are in F. I have to transpose the Banjeaurine, Guitar and Mandolin into Dmaj so that they'll all sing harmoniously together in the MIDI. THAT's the problem!

If I was just playing from the page, the transposition happens naturally, no worries. Getting them all into one key is gonna probably take more brains than I can scoop up...unless someone has a better idea?

[Jody Stecher]

the relationship between all the types of banjo is clear. But why the wooden topped instruments should have their notation in F remains inscrutable. Nothing seems to have been attached to your latest message after all so I can't see for myself.